Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 23-07-2000, 11:19 PM   #31   [permalink]
Redlotus
Member
 
Redlotus's Avatar
 
Join Date: 12 Jul 2000
Location: Tokyo3
Posts: 100
Send a message via ICQ to Redlotus Send a message via AIM to Redlotus
Big purple robot?? No, no...big purple eva
;]
__________________
Gendo: Rei, you're a nude girl in a test tube. I like that. Let's have a weird relationship.

Redlotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2000, 11:24 PM   #32   [permalink]
Shadow War
Forum Elite
 
Shadow War's Avatar
 
Join Date: 4 Jul 2000
Location: Melbourne, Aus 27/M
Posts: 1,996
Send a message via ICQ to Shadow War Send a message via AIM to Shadow War
O.k purple Evangelion unit-01...
It is still big and purple!
Shadow War is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-03-2007, 10:20 PM   #33   [permalink]
John Faulkner
Banned
 
Join Date: 20 Mar 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,535
Originally Posted by ATh
Yes it is the Qabalah which uses the glyph of the Tree of Life, and the Sephiroth. (though the Tree is mentioned twice in the bible).

Yes i still think Anno came across the Qabalah by reading Jung, but no one is yet to validate me or disprove me.

ATh
Why did you think Anno came across the Qabalah by reading Jung?

I know that in "Symbols of Transformation" [Collected Works 5] that there is a picture of Jesus Christ being crucified on a Tree of Life, but I can't quite remember the Kabbalah being mentioned. Incidentally, the same book also mentions the martial arts contest between Marduk and Tiamat (cf. Marduk institute).

In fact, I have this irrational feeling that Anno actually read the damn book. In the foreword to the book, Jung writes [PGXXIV-XXV; my italics]:

"I was driven to ask myself in all seriousness: "What is the myth you are living?" .... I did not know that I was living a myth .... I took it upon myself to get to know "my" myth, and I regarded this as the task of tasks .... I simply had to know what unconscious or preconscious myth was forming me, from what rhizome I sprang."

And this is part of the lyrics to Cruel Angel's Thesis (http://www.animanga.com/scripts/textesgb/eva_op.html) [ADV English version has words to this effect]:

"boy you be a myth!"

i.e. Shinji must live a myth - must get to know his myth.


Firstly, those who have not read Jung would probably think this is some new-age quackery, but it does make sense to the overall theme of the show if you get to understand what he means by "myth" here.

Secondly, mere coincidence, an allusion to Jung or a case of cryptomnesia?
John Faulkner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-03-2007, 09:02 AM   #34   [permalink]
Jorga
Junior Member
 
Join Date: 22 Jul 2005
Posts: 20
Anno definitely read Jung. There are too many archetype symbols in Evangelion. But also there are many other things besides Jung & Freud theories.
John Faulkner, are you psychologist?
Jorga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-03-2007, 08:35 PM   #35   [permalink]
John Faulkner
Banned
 
Join Date: 20 Mar 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,535
Originally Posted by Jorga
Anno definitely read Jung. There are too many archetype symbols in Evangelion. But also there are many other things besides Jung & Freud theories.
The big question is: which book(s) by Jung did Anno read? I agree there are a lot of archetypal symbols in Evangelion. Rei is easy to recognize as a symbol for Shinji's anima (=soul). You can then immediately see why Eva-00 doesn't need a soul - Rei is the damn soul. I agree there are influences other than those from Jung&Freud. However, I believe we can use Jung's theories to get at the fundamental meaning of Evangelion, through its symbols. Also, Jung can help in interpreting character actions non-symbolically.

I also believe that character analysis of Shinji, Asuka etc. and the relationships between them have been far too simplistic on the Internet. e.g. some of the character analysis on Wikipaedia consists plainly of fantasy projections by fans e.g. for Asuka
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asuka_Langley_Soryu

Quote:
"Shinji carries out a deceptively straightforward love-hate relationship with Asuka .... Shinji is attracted to Asuka, but is unable to truly express his feelings for her .... Asuka, likewise, is attracted to Shinji both sexually and romantically .... Shinji's meek and submissive, yet caring nature."
If I was chief editor of Wikipaedia, I would pretty much reprimand the person/people who submitted this (as to my reasons, I alluded roughly to some of them at http://www.animeboards.com/showthrea...#post537812837 and other posts in that thread; one of the prominent reasons is that Shinji [as the emergent entity of his conscious and unconscious psychic processes, together with his physical body] had no bloody idea what his true feelings were for Asuka and thus was portrayed to act as such, so to just toss that aside and blurt out "Oh! Shinji is attracted [in a loving way] to Asuka for sure! He harbours secret emotions of undying tender love for Asuka! Only that he couldn't express these truest of feelings for his only sweetheart!" [or words to that effect] is well, plain naivety; also, "caring" is not the word to describe Shinji's nature as portrayed, not by a long stretch).

Originally Posted by Jorga
John Faulkner, are you psychologist?
Not by profession, no. My post-high school study and work has revolved around science and business. However, in my spare time, I became interested in certain aspects of "religion", "philosophy" and psychology. That was how I came to find out a fair bit about Jung.

Last edited by John Faulkner; 28-03-2007 at 09:20 PM. Reason: Added 5 words
John Faulkner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2007, 04:28 AM   #36   [permalink]
Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Registered User
 
Pengi_Ken-Ohki's Avatar
 
Join Date: 23 Sep 2000
Location: 0.0
Posts: 11,640
Send a message via ICQ to Pengi_Ken-Ohki Send a message via AIM to Pengi_Ken-Ohki Send a message via Yahoo to Pengi_Ken-Ohki
I believe that loneliness and a desperate need to force everyone else to join together in a giant global single entity which denies humanity's flaws and glosses over the downsides of such a society is a quite possible future for us.

It may not be the 4th impact, forcing us all into 1 giant being with no sense of individuality, self, love or pain, but it'll be close enough. The death of diversity. The death of what we are, at the cost of who we are.

A dystopia.
Pengi_Ken-Ohki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-03-2007, 09:13 PM   #37   [permalink]
John Faulkner
Banned
 
Join Date: 20 Mar 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,535
Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
I believe that loneliness and a desperate need to force everyone else to join together in a giant global single entity which denies humanity's flaws and glosses over the downsides of such a society is a quite possible future for us.
In a way, we here in modern society like to see ourselves as overall "good people" - i.e. we all have our foibles, but behind it all, on the whole, we are living on the right side of the fence and on the right track.

But I agree with you, that there is the danger of glossing over the fact that we have a serious shadow side, and that this is not got rid of by imagining it away (or drowning it in other people's opinions of oneself), but by confronting it - by accepting it and forging it into our whole. Of glossing over the fact that the same basic human mind and body plan that we are based on, is also the one which the Janjaweed is based on - so that we lose focus on the insight that human nature is not inherently good or evil, but both, and that we take for granted the social situation which determines the way human nature unfolds.

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
It may not be the 4th impact, forcing us all into 1 giant being with no sense of individuality, self, love or pain, but it'll be close enough. The death of diversity. The death of what we are, at the cost of who we are.
Such "negative" phenomena as pain and suffering one cannot hope to avoid. So we better make sure we know how to deal with it. And that means we don't run away from the individual causes, into one of the frivolous distractions offered in the world. Else it really will be the death of the individual, at the cost of who we are and at the cost of a proper relation with other people.

Just like Shinji, we have to stop running away from ourselves, and therefore others (phew, linked it back to Evangelion at the last minute!!!).
John Faulkner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2007, 06:55 PM   #38   [permalink]
Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Registered User
 
Pengi_Ken-Ohki's Avatar
 
Join Date: 23 Sep 2000
Location: 0.0
Posts: 11,640
Send a message via ICQ to Pengi_Ken-Ohki Send a message via AIM to Pengi_Ken-Ohki Send a message via Yahoo to Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Damn Faulkner. I read your links that you gave to Sam in the Love Hina forum. I was pretty young when I came to these forums all those years ago, but I still thought I had seen and had every possible discussion about NGE that existed. Hadn't even scraped the iceberg. In just skimming a few posts I see that discussion about NGE has gone to a much deeper level. The end content and discussion is still familiar, it was just never recognised as such before.

Dear god Im tempted to join back in, but I would have to watch the entire series and movies again. How many times have you seen them? Personally, the pain and agony of the series left a deep enough imprint that without the excitement of "new material" to shield me, I can't bring myself to watch it all again. (I think Ive only seen the series+eoe 4 times through).

I'm still trying to understand some of these more advanced concepts, running on 5 year old memory. What is it exactly that you think the AT field is or represents? Back then I think we used to focus primarily on the mechanics of the universe (whose soul is in Eva00?) and basic symbolism (why the cross? why the use of 3s, what is the connection to our world and depression?).
Pengi_Ken-Ohki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2007, 09:55 AM   #39   [permalink]
John Faulkner
Banned
 
Join Date: 20 Mar 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,535
Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Damn Faulkner. I read your links that you gave to Sam in the Love Hina forum. I was pretty young when I came to these forums all those years ago, but I still thought I had seen and had every possible discussion about NGE that existed. Hadn't even scraped the iceberg. In just skimming a few posts I see that discussion about NGE has gone to a much deeper level. The end content and discussion is still familiar, it was just never recognised as such before.
It has quietened down considerably nowadays though ....
When I first came here, all I did mainly was to bitch about how Shinji's meekness is nothing to be ashamed of. I didn't even think Evangelion was that deep and dismissed most of the symbols as meaningless trash. But as the years rolled by, it became blatantly obvious that life is in an eternal waltz with death, and no philosophy or attitude to life can hope to leave this out. I saw Shinji's meekness as a fault, as it meant he did not acknowledge his dark side. He was a coward. If Evangelion was all about the story of a meek little boy, then it's time it went into the incinerator. But I thought a bit more about the symbols. It occurred to me that Shinji was a coward, but he found a way to overcome this. That makes him, in the end, far from a coward. Then I realized the meaning behind one of the defining messages of Evangelion: don't run away from yourself.

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Dear god Im tempted to join back in, but I would have to watch the entire series and movies again. How many times have you seen them? Personally, the pain and agony of the series left a deep enough imprint that without the excitement of "new material" to shield me, I can't bring myself to watch it all again. (I think Ive only seen the series+eoe 4 times through).
I am also tempted to examine everything in Evangelion to the hilt. But unfortunately, gone are the days when I had more time than sense. I take a pretty random approach to watching Evangelion. Some of the early episodes I've seen >5 times, whereas some of the more boring episodes no more than 2. Sure, NGE left an imprint on me, and although I feel it shows important themes, I think it's good to remember it does not show the end-all and be-all of the meaning of life.

Originally Posted by Pengi_Ken-Ohki
I'm still trying to understand some of these more advanced concepts, running on 5 year old memory. What is it exactly that you think the AT field is or represents? Back then I think we used to focus primarily on the mechanics of the universe (whose soul is in Eva00?) and basic symbolism (why the cross? why the use of 3s, what is the connection to our world and depression?).
I have played around with different conceptions of the AT Field in the past, but I've finally settled upon one - roughly described in a recent post http://www.animeboards.com/showthrea...#post537837798.

Firstly, what I've posted doesn't make a lot of sense if you haven't read Jung. So I'll explain in more detail what I mean here. I am surprised that Jung's ideas have not been applied to Evangelion in a detailed way. I've searched popular Evangelion forums (AB,AN,EvaMonkey) and Wikipaedia, and read a few essays, and although a lot of lip-service has been given to Jung and Freud, when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, things grind to an unceremonious halt. Thus, what I'm doing is, to my knowledge, new: Here is the framework in a whistle-stop-tour kind of way - first, very rough introduction to Jung:

Jung studied people with mental problems. From his studies, he postulated two mental domains. 1. Consciousness (= ego) - pretty self explanatory. 2. Unconscious - this part consists of repressed (either voluntarily or involuntarily) thoughts and those irrational mental processes which cannot be conceptualized fully in a rational way (and hence perceived by consciousness). Our psyche is the totality of all psychic (mental) processes, and obviously includes both 1 and 2. Analogous to the physical body, the psyche needs energy to function (probably has parallels to nerve impulses). This psychic energy Jung called "Libido" (not to be confused with Freud's usage). Energy can come in different forms (analogous to heat, kinetic etc.) - hence Libido can be found giving rise to conscious or unconscious phenomena. The development of the human mind from that similar to the first human's (through evolutionary history) takes the course of an increasing consciousness - being able to see the big picture, think long-term, form strategies, reason using logic, perceive the whole shebang etc. Thus, Jung conceptualized the unconscious as the original source of Libido and within it there is a store of undifferentiated (not of any form) Libido which can then differentiate and give rise to unconscious and conscious phenomena.

Now, as one's mind becomes more unconscious, we lose some or a lot of conscious control of ourselves - imagine just before going to sleep, swimming until you get really out of breath, being really tired, etc. Thus, Jung uses the phrase that we are like the object to which other people are the subject - that is, we don't feel ourselves in control as the subject, but feel like an object pulled in different directions by forces we cannot control. This led Jung to conceptualize unconscious contents as similar to the "soul." Plato et al. saw the soul as "that which moves itself" - some sort of force of unknown origin. From the preceding consideration, unconscious contents seem to control us from an unknown source, to give a sort of life to inanimate material. Thus, Jung used the word soul, or anima to denote part of the unconscious contents. Now in dreams, fantasies and daydreams, some unconscious contents break out into our consciousness because our threshold of consciousness has been lowered. From his studies, Jung found that images pertaining to one's mother is common. Thus, he associated these mother-images to the anima - the mother symbolizes the anima, because like the anima, the mother is seen as a life-giver (through birth). Now this sounds all a bit pointless, but the raison d'etre is that Jung wanted to interpret dreams, and to do this, he had to conceptualize images according to some framework which render a meaning. And seeing the mother as an unconscious force allowed Jung to postulate a route towards sanity, for people suffering from, or in danger of, schizophrenia. For Jung, schizophrenia means a sort of conscious/unconscious split - think of someone who has lost some sort of conscious reasoning ability and who seems to be governed by unconscious contents beyond his control - one is "not oneself". So the basic idea is that these cases occur because his patients are running away from something which is hidden in their unconscious - these unconscious contents can become energetic enough to disturb our consciousness; thus, we need to dredge them out and forge them into our conscious way of life. Dreams help to resolve the conflict, because say, you had dreamt about a long series of mother images. This shows that your unconscious activity is overflowing, and that indicates you might be heading towards schizophrenia, because you are hiding a hell of a lot of baggage in your unconscious. Thus, in a dream, if one escapes from this "devouring mother," perhaps with a rebirth through her womb, then this signifies that one is at last free from the binds of the unconscious. Jung saw many parallels with dreams such as these and myths of yore. Thus, the somewhat cryptic sentence by Jung "I took it upon myself to get to know "my" myth, and I regarded this as the task of tasks" (http://www.animeboards.com/showthrea...#post537837802) - that is, he wanted to get to know his unconscious contents, to get a better idea of his whole psyche.

Now onto Evangelion.


Propositions:
The Evangelions represent the unconscious, LCL represents the Libido, the soul inside EVA-01 represents part of Shinji's anima, the soul inside EVA-02 represents Asuka's anima, Rei is part of Shinji's anima, Eva-00 has no resident soul and AT Field represents barrier between consciousness and unconscious.


Rough argument
Eva-01 and Eva-02 have the souls of Shinji and Asuka's mothers. Soul (or anima) is what Jung uses to refer to unconscious contents, and thus, which of the two mothers is present tells you whose unconscious each refers to. LCL is a fluid, dynamic, undifferentiated liquid-like substance, just like Libido in its undifferentiated state. Thus LCL symbolizes undifferentiated Libido, which, as per above, resides in the unconscious (and thus, the Evangelion symbolizes the unconscious as a whole). Also, it has been referred to as the "soup of life" in Eva, and undifferentiated Libido is like the source of all our psychic activities ("life"). There is also a remarkable passage in Jung's Collected Works Part 9 (i) (PG21-2) - here Jung is describing what the unconscious is like [my italics, bold lettering and numbering]:

Quote:
"a boundless expanse full of unprecedented uncertainty, with apparently no inside and no outside, no above and no below, no here and no there, no mine and no thine, no good and no bad. It is the world of water (1) , where all life floats in suspension; where .... the soul of everything living, begins (2) ; where I am indivisibly this and that; where I experience the other in myself and the other-than-myself experiences me (3) ....

There I am utterly one with the world (4) , so much a part of it that I forget all too easily who I really am. "Lost in oneself" is a good way of describing this state. But this self is the world, if only a consciousness could see it. (5) "
Compare this with what Rei drones out in EoE [my italics, bold lettering and numbering]:

Quote:
"Shinji:
Ayanami - where are we?

Rei:
This is the sea of LCL (1) - The primordial soup of life (2).
A world without AT Fields - without your own shape.
An ambiguous world where it is impossible to tell where you end and other people start.
A fragile world where you exist everywhere, and thus exist nowhere. (3)


Shinji:
Have I died?

Rei:
No, everything has just been joined into one (4) .
This is the world you have been hoping for... your world. (5) "
I've paired off sections which are similar using numbers. The similarities are so striking that I don't even need to point them out. This shows in clear fashion, that there are real similarities to Jung. This is also why I am interested to see what Jung material Anno has read. The point of the comparison is to show that Jung's Libido ("water") equates to LCL, and further, if the AT Fields are lost, then we are left with a collapse of consciousness (similar to that seen in schizophrenia - which argues for the case that Shinji suffered from this - must stress Jung's definition of schizophrenia, not the modern one), and we are left wallowing in our unconscious thoughts (the soup of life or whatever the hell you want to call it).

Other evidence for AT-Field being barrier between consciousness and unconscious: Evangelions exhibit an AT-Field to separate it from the outside (consciously perceived) world. When Third Impact occurs, AT-Fields are dissolved and Maya, Hyuga and Fuyutsuki's personal unconscious wishes were manifest, before they all explode into undifferentiated (i.e. non-personal) LCL (i.e. consciousness slowly deteriorates). Third Impact is the dissolution of consciousness into the unconscious, by the breakdown of the barrier between them. Notice how the characters were all forced to confront all the thoughts they have stashed away in the unconscious in both series and movie endings. So:

Consciousness (=Ego) | Unconscious;
| = AT Field

Also note that Shinji popping back up from the sea of LCL and saying goodbye to mother is an obvious example of a rebirth-myth (return to "sanity").

Now why is Rei part of Shinji's anima - well we have Yui' s soul is Shinji's anima, but in this framework, this anima is incomplete. Rei is the missing part, and Rei resembles Yui and has the soul of Lilith (Red Cross Book - note that Jung also had a book called the "Red Book," whether this is of any relevance or not is another thing). Lilith is a generic life-source, from which we immediately see the resemblance to undifferentiated Libido, from which we see that Rei is a mixture of the conscious Yui and a generic unconscious part. This points to Rei being another mother-image, although representing contents which are slightly more conscious than the contents represented by Yui's soul, because of the conscious body. Also, having a generic unconscious part (or soul), Rei can synch with EVA-00 even if it has no resident soul (i.e. EVA-00 symbolizes an unconscious not designated to any particular person), and being part of Shinji's anima, she can synch with EVA-01 as well. Ramifications: EVA-00 going berserk is due to the influence of Yui in Rei through the generic unconscious (i.e. Shinji's unconscious), and Ritsuko thinking EVA-00 is after her is probably due to her guilt rather than EVA-00 aiming for her (unless the young Shinji saw something indecent or something concerning Ritsuko).*** Also, I think there is an argument for the case that since Rei has a generic unconscious part in Yui's body, she needs to align this generic unconscious part to Yui's consciousness and thus realize that she is part of Shinji's psyche - which she does eventually and "Becomes one" with Shinji to complete his psyche and return to sanity (a hieros gamos or "holy wedding") - so Shinji must get to know his unconscious and Rei (Shinji's unconscious) needs to get to know his consciousness; they meet in the middle to the delight of everyone (series ending).

As for the prominence of 3's (and even 4's) and the cross motif, I think I can explain these using this framework as well. Also, there's probably more fun and games explaining the other character and Eva actions using this framework. But I'll leave this for the future.

***[EDIT] Need here to explain why Shinji could synch with EVA-00. Possibility that Rei's soul (derived or of Lilith, with hints of Yui) is so strong that it has left an aura in EVA-00 for Shinji to synch with. This aura then starts to fade, such that Shinji's consciousness might become subsumed by the LCL (undifferentiated Libido) because the path to consciousness, as provided by the aura of Rei's soul, is lost. Psychological contamination occurs and EVA-00 goes berserk. This sounds convoluted, so I may think about EVA-00 having some sort of soul derived from Lillith or something in the future. This wouldn't change the other conclusions reached in this post.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Summary
Jungian framework used to explain some of the symbols in Evangelion. By doing so, the events in Evangelion can be related to the workings of the human psyche and hence our world and the phenomena of mental "illness". More broadly, it shows the dangers of chucking everything we don't like in our unconscious and not facing up to them, something which we can all fall into. What I've written here is not detailed and fully referenced, but just getting some ideas floating around in my head down.

I conjecture that what Anno really tried to show in this anime is what he went through in his mental breakdown, in symbolic form: e.g. famous Anno quote [my italics and bold lettering]:
Quote:
"I tried to include everything of myself in Neon Genesis Evangelion -- myself, a broken man who could do nothing for four years.

A man who ran away for four years, one who was simply not dead.

Then one thought:

"You can't run away,"

came to me, and I restarted this production.

It is a production where my only thought was to burn my feelings into film.

....

That is because within me, the story is not yet finished."
The story is within him. Thus, it represents part of his psyche. It is his myth, which he has found and is living, just like Shinji (Anno's avatar) must find and live his myth (see Jung quote above and lyrics to theme song). I think that

Evangelion is the myth of Anno in anime form

This sort of analysis (ostensibly obscenely long), I believe, gives the type of messages which have some value in real life, as opposed to endless attempts at just drawing parallels between events in Evangelion and the Bible, a religious/philosophical/magical textbook, some ---- off the Internet, or Eva-related merchandise, without any links to the human mind, and hence, our real lives (http://www.animeboards.com/showthrea...#post537833555) - the latter type of analysis being all too prevalent on messageboards in my opinion.

Last edited by John Faulkner; 01-04-2007 at 02:01 PM.
John Faulkner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2007, 06:31 PM   #40   [permalink]
Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Registered User
 
Pengi_Ken-Ohki's Avatar
 
Join Date: 23 Sep 2000
Location: 0.0
Posts: 11,640
Send a message via ICQ to Pengi_Ken-Ohki Send a message via AIM to Pengi_Ken-Ohki Send a message via Yahoo to Pengi_Ken-Ohki
Hmmm, I'd agree from your post that he may have been influenced by this 'Jung', but I also think that you're reading too much into it. I definitely agree that NGE is not the be-all and end all, and certainly had a lot of trash symbolism.

Didn't Kaoru state that his AT field was the light of his soul? Of course, there are going to be translation issues in there. On top of that, I have to wonder about Angels and AT fields. I want to talk about the symbolism on the one hand, but I find I keep ending up discussing mechanics. Like why Angels return to Adam, the difference between Kaoru and a human, why Angels can use AT fields, why Yui would need to preserve a memory of humanity.

I guess thats the real problem with a lot of these discussions. The story is the medium for expressing the idea, and like most writers on a budget, a schedule or whatever, when the 2 don't align you just push through.

I need coffee -_-
Pengi_Ken-Ohki is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I want to bring anime world to the real world . . . orochi X General and Other Anime 17 08-06-2002 11:14 PM
[Archive]: Is it real? eva2000 Evangelion Ezboard archives 0 20-08-2000 11:22 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.